Sustainable & Fast Fashion: Where are They Heading? J A CONVERSATIONS with Sophie Benson




In this instalment of the J A CONVERSATIONS series. I had the chance to have a great conversation with Sophie Benson. A Journalist writing about sustainable fashion, environmentalism and consumerism. We discuss Sophie's article 'If Gen Z Killed Fast Fashion why is Fast Fashion Still Booming?' The price of second hand clothing, and what sustainable fashion can do better. I hope you enjoy the conversation.


Transcript


Josh

Hi, Sophie, thank you so much for for joining me today. Would you like to introduce yourself?


Soph

I'm Sophie Benson. And I'm a freelance journalist writing about fashion within the context of the environment, workers rights, and consumerism. And I cover those topics for publications like dazed and the Guardian, and the independent.


Josh

Great. So as I say, thank you so much for for joining me. And I guess the reason for this conversation today is I came across your article for Dazed, If Gen Z killed fast, fashion, Why is fast fashion still booming. And for me as a sustainable fashion business owner that was really interesting, I wanted to explore that. And you brought up some points that I hadn't seen mentioned before, I hadn't necessarily heard of before, from perhaps some interviews you managed to get from some of the studies. So I just wanted to dive into that, unpack it a little bit and try to share some of that information for people. I think it's really interesting.


Sophie

Sounds good.


Josh

So I wanted to start with the boom of thrifting, or secondhand shopping. I think in your article, it says the secondhand marketplace is set to eclipse fast fashion by 2029.I just wanted to see what you thought has led to that rise, how we got here? And do you think it might eclipse fast fashion faster than that?


Sophie

Yeah, I mean, that's so tricky to say, given the kind of duality of people's shopping habits, but I think one of the reasons that we've kind of got to this point is because of apps like Vinted, and Depop, just making it really, really easy to find those secondhand pieces and to do that kind of peer to peer selling. Whereas before, you know, it was it was a completely kind of it was a different shopping experience. So if you used to going into high street shops, you would have multiple sizes of something. And you know, you'd have sections that you could look for. Whereas if you're going into a charity shop, or a vintage shop, it's much more of a sort of hunting kind of mentality, you know, you have to look through and things aren't standardised. And there's one size and that's it. Whereas apps like this, I think really mirror Ecom, you know, you can use filters. And the imagery as, as the apps have developed, more has become more curated and more professional, you can refine by your size by what brands you want. And so it's just made the I think it's just made the whole thing, much, much easier and more reflective of the, of the style of shopping that we're used to. And, and I think because of that as well, it kind of removes that stigma that used to be attached to it. Whereas, you know, I tell people I bought something at a charity shop and they go, Oh, Doesn't it smell Oh, and someone died in it, and it's just become much more normal. So I think that's why it's on the rise. In terms of whether it will eclipse fast fashion, faster than that, but a lot of fast. I'm not sure. I don't think I could say I think yeah, it's certainly you know, we can see is really, really growing. But we can also see that ultra fast fashion is growing at an incredible rate as well. So yes, I think at the moment, they're kind of running side by side. I don't know who's winning the race.

Yeah, like you touched on briefly there's that duality isn't there, they're both running along alongside each other for, for for different reasons.Some being out of necessity, people need to get something at that kind of price point. They might not necessarily have any other choice. They've got an interview tomorrow and they need to buy a suit or something to that effect. But definitely, there's something else driving it can't just be necessarily people on low income driving those those sales.


Sophie

Yeah.


So what do you what do you think's propping that up and kind of giving it that steam still with so much education around what needs to be done for the environment for workers rights and all these things?


Sophie

I mean, I think I think there's a couple of points in In what you said there, so there, there definitely is an element of people on low income who need to buy certain things, which is fine. But I feel like lots of kind of middle class white commentators like to imagine this low income working class person who desperately needs you know, fast fashion. who's queuing up outside Primark, and whatever, going to make themselves feel better about the purchases that they make, and starting this talk around, you know, criticising that criticising fast fashion is classism. And, but it cannot be this billion pound industry cannot just be fuelled by people on a low income, buying the necessities because otherwise, you know, it just wouldn't, it wouldn't last what is really propped up on is absolute hyper overconsumption, people buying things they don't need, people wearing things, getting bored of it immediately and buying something else. So there is an element of accessibility, perhaps. But that's, it's that's the kind of really relatively new thing anyway, you know, if you go back 20 years, people on lower incomes were spending much more on clothes relative to their income. And you know, we're keeping them longer and things of better quality, because we didn't have this, you know, this hyper accentuated cycle of consumption. So it's absolutely overconsumption that is driving this rather than this sort of faux charitable status that these fast fashion brands like to think that they have.


Josh

Yeah, yeah. So so perhaps it's almost a battle of marketing budgets. Right, right now, perhaps. Yeah. fast fashion is able to convince people you need this new thing. you need maybe me a couple of pairs, you need to not be wearing in the same thing throughout the week, people need to see change.


Sophie

Absolutely. Yeah, you see, I mean, you see the the language that they use, and it's all need, you know, you kind of need this in your wardrobe, the outfits that you need in the all the occasions that they talk about needing things for, like, you know, you need it for date night, need it for Friday, you need new clothes for lounging when no one's gonna see to you, you know, you need new clothes for I don't know, go to the shops or posting a letter like any excuse they can think of to make you buy something they will. And it's just not it's not it's such a new behaviour. We didn't we haven't always done that. And I think they've, they've almost convinced us that we've always been buying new clothes. And it's just, it's normal to just buy something for the weekend. But it wasn't we had Sunday best or you'd save up for an outfit and you'd re-wear your special clothes. And it's just this completely manufactured need that they have.That they've kind of they've kind of given us and make us feel really deeply.


Josh

Yeah, yeah. I think it's quite interesting as well, what we're seeing with the the younger generation, mixing the two in a way. So quite often 90% of their outfit will be vintage from secondhand stores but then you've got maybe the ZARA jeans thrown in you've got a H&M jacket to go over the top. And so you've kind of almost got that, again, duality confliction in there. How do you think that play plays a part? Or what what is that doing? Why? Why is the overall ensemble not secondhand, or from a sustainable store


Sophie

I think some of it probably comes down to a perception of value. So when I've spoken to. So I sometimes work as a lecturer, for example. And when I speak to my students who are about 10 years younger than me, they a lot of them say, Well, why shouldn't I? Why shouldn't I, you know, buy cheap clothes, or I can't afford anything else. But the people saying that they can't afford anything else. I then say to them how many pieces are you buying? Oh, only two or three pieces a week? Okay, well, that's, you know, 10-12 pieces a month, what, you know, what does that add up to? That adds up to quite a significant disposable income that you could spend on something that's, that is, you know, someone's been fairly paid for or what have you. And so there's been this real shift in in what we what we think we can afford and what we think represents good value. And, you know, I think affordability has been completely conflated with cheapness. And they're absolutely not the same thing. And so our expectations are completely changed about what we think that clothes are worth essentially. So you know, and at the same time, you know, looking at second hand and how that has become more popular. Because of that the price of second hand has in some circumstances risen as well. So even in comparison to secondhand fast fashion can sometimes be even cheaper than that something, you know, cheaper than something that's already been worn. So it really is this kind of chasing of value and what you know, what we think is affordable, and I've 100% been in that trap, you know, buying loads of things, for cheap and thinking that I can't afford anything better. But again, a lot of that is to do with the communication that these brands have with us and saying, you know, all this awful stuff that, you know, we're giving our girls the chance to, to, you know, to buy things they can afford, again, like the doing as a favour, and it's just, you know, it's just shit.


Josh

Yeah. Something you mentioned just there, which is interesting which people have been talking about recently is the price of vintage, or secondhand, being inflated because of this, this demand, which is potentially excluding people that that really need it, or, or it's just yeah driving up the price to a point where it's probably not a fair price for what the item is. How do we, how do we tackle something like that? Or is that just a consequence of the direction we're going in?


Sophie

I have thought a lot about this problem, or so called problem and I was worried about this kind of so called gentrification of secondhand, however, looking into it and really thinking quite hard about it. And, you know, being someone who has relied on secondhand clothes in the past, because I couldn't afford to buy new things and, you know, understanding that situation. There are so many clothes in the world, I mean, the figures range from you know, enough for the next 10 years to enough for the next six generations. I don't know, you know, I don't want the exact figures, but we do know that we're making around 100 billion garments a year, that's an enormous amount of clothes. So my kind of ultimate, the ultimate point that I got to is, there is enough to go around, people will make money you know, off things, people will go to a charity shop or a thrift shop and completely inflate the price of things. But at the same time, there is so much that it's difficult to inflate prices across the board until it becomes completely inaccessible to everyone because the volume is just there there just isn't that kind of scarcity to to worry completely inflated prices for every single secondhand, secondhand item. So yeah, I do see people's point and I do see it happening and you know someone buying a some sort of Brandy Melville thing and selling it for 300 quid to me is wild and ethically dodgy. But I just think there's there is enough to go around there. Is there so much clothes, I think people aren't going to struggle to find, you know, what they need? I mean, obviously, I think the issue of sizing comes into that and, you know, there were there are definitely caveats to that. But, you know, I think broadly speaking, we have enough and it's not going to completely put second hand off limits to you know, to everyone who needs that that cheaper accessible entry.


Josh

Okay, okay. Yeah, sizing was one of the the issues that came up fairly consistently in your article with regards to shopping secondhand and maybe more sustainable, sustainable stores. So what are some of the things you think sustainable brands and stores could do? could do better to try and include, make sure that including as many people as possible as possible in what they're offering,


Sophie

I mean, just investing in in size inclusivity you get brands who, you know, sort of the sustainable brands and they say well, we go into an XL so we're size inclusive, but an XL might be a size 14 and that's not what even what we're talking about in terms of average size for you know, a UK woman or or an American woman or wherever you're based. And so there's this huge chunk of the market who are being criticised you know, for shopping fast fashion, but why wouldn't they when fast fashion is you know, miles ahead in catering to them and their their issues in terms of, of grading properly and you know, only grading from small sizes and not taking into account different body types and it isn't perfect, but fast fashion is arguably kind of streets ahead on that and sustainable brands need to catch up. And it's it's difficult for smaller brands and actually just today doing some research on size inclusivity and one American brands set the set the figure the baseline investment, for What a size inclusive range been $500,000, which obviously is not insignificant. However, you know, I think if you're launching a brand, you shouldn't be launching with just a very limited range of sizes and then saying, okay, we'll fix it later. What message is that sending, like, you're not good enough for our clothes, or we can't tell people they're not good enough, or they don't deserve a certain type of clothes, and then also say, everyone should be buying sustainably. So yeah, I mean, absolutely, you know, these brands need to catch up. And so I am not one to judge people who can't shop within that so called straight size range. And, you know, for shopping where they need to what will cater for their body? And when, you know, alternatives just aren't available


Josh

Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, sustainable fashion needs to kind of look at things from a free 360°. So not just necessarily Oh the material is environmentally friendly. And that's enough. Like you said, You need to try and include everybody. And make sure it's been made well and fairly you, you can't come into it and compromise on one thing.


Sophie

Absolutely.


Josh

And I think that that's where the issue comes in on both sides, where there's a lot of compromise. So we did this, but haven't quite reached this yet. And I think I think that's where the issue is coming in on both sides from fast fashion's point of view as well as sustainable fashion. What were some of the other issues that that kind of people were saying, limited their access to sustainable fashion?


Sophie

I mean, one really interesting one, which honestly, I hadn't considered because I didn't have experience of it. And people were really generous in sharing their experiences, was sensory issues. So I spoke to a number of people who said, Okay, I have autism, and there are certain fabrics that just don't work for me and, and who spoke quite highly of certain sustainable brands, because of the nature of say, you know, high quality fabrics, you know, not sort of causing irritation, or what have you. However, it's things like being able to try on and returns or being able to size up significantly, so there's not that restriction or the feeling of sort of seams on your skin. So that was, for me, that was a really new point. And I was really grateful people for sharing that with me, because, you know, we all have our sort of limitations of, of our life experience. And I think that's something really significant that, you know, that that we need to consider. So, yeah, someone, for example, who doesn't know how a certain fit or certain fabric or a certain type of seam is going to make them feel, isn't going to be comfortable spending, you know, £200 on an organic cotton sweater, for example. If they're then stuck with that garment, and then, you know, can't change it. So there are there are kind of lesser known and lesser spoken about issues, you know, to be to be taken into account as well. And, yeah, I was really interested in that. And it was a number of people who got in touch with me and said about that. So yeah, I was, I'm lucky that people are kind of generous with, you know, with sharing their experiences with me. Yeah. And I thought I thought that was really interesting.


Josh

Yeah, that's really interesting. I hadn't I hadn't come across that before either so? Yeah, I think brands allowing people to have that kind of ease of return, changing something. If it doesn't work for them, needs to be as good as how you can send something back to ASOS


Sophie

Yeah I think so. Yeah. And I mean, even if it's just kind of visualising, it might help, you know, visualising better and showing different sizes, or, I don't know, do you do catalogues of fabrics samples that can get returned and made into patchwork clothes at the end of season? I don't know, but there could be really innovative ways you can go around that to let people sample the clothes without having to, to ship a full garment. But even if it is, you know, okay, shipping, a full garment, then brands needs to be looking at their kind of reverse inventory and reverse logistics and making sure they, you know, they're definitely going back into circulation as well. So it's, every time we uncover one problem, it's like, okay, we need to make people to be able to make exchange, for example, but then it's like, Okay, what your reverse logistics, is it going to be wasted? Do you have that in place? So there's always kind of things down the line that need considering as well. And yes, it's not always a kind of easy solution. And I would love to see Yeah, I would love to see people think in a really creative way about how can we envisage and express what our garments are without someone having to order five different things and return one of them just so they've got, you know, they're satisfied with that purchase.


Josh

Yeah, absolutely. I've seen yet a few kind of startup companies working on that visualisation element. Online fitting room kind of element which is, which is an interesting point maybe. Where do you see sustainable fashion heading in terms of what what does it look like maybe in five years time?


Sophie

I think, well, it's, I think a lot of sustainable fashion conversation, and it is shifting, but it's still around kind of virgin material. So we're using better cotton, or we're using, you know, better cashmere or, you know, this is sourced better. Whereas I think we really need to be looking at the circular economy. And I think you know, that that's happening, you've got you know, Nordstrom I think did another tomorrow, they had their kind of resale shop and Mara Hoffman and brands are doing looking into resale. And Ralph Lauren did resale, I think with Depop, so you know, it is happening, but looking at the fabrics that we have, and looking at them as as a resource in themselves. And but doing that in a way that kind of isn't, isn't putting people out of business at the same time. So we obviously have people growing fibres, and what have you, and and considering them in the process? You know, I don't know what the answer that is. But you know, they would need to think of that, and there are so many textiles in the world. And yes, I think we need to be harnessing them more carefully. And I think what we'll also see, probably due to kind of legislative kind of force essentially, is brands having to take responsibility for their end of life product as well. So footwear brand, like 1000 fell, they're doing that, you know, full circularity bringing things back into their own sort of manufacturing cycle, I think we need to see a lot more of that. Otherwise, you know, there are this talk about circular collections in the circular economy, but that's just more kind of taking, taking, you know, recycling something within your manufacturing cycle, sending off to the user. And and they don't know what to do with it, they just kind of put it out of the environment to rot or to just exist for 1000s of years. So what I'm hoping will see is this kind of recapture from a brand responsibility point of view that they will take responsibility for what they're putting out into the world and reuse it in whatever way they you know, they have to.


Josh

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think circularity is definitely a big portion of of the answer. And when you're designing, knowing what the outcome or how this garment can traverse that cycle, can it be disassembled. Is it modular? Can you can somebody add a new part to it if needs be is it suitable for recycling? How easy is it to recycle that? And if you do go down the biodegradable route? Is it going to be safe? Is it without leaching any kind of chemical?


Sophie

Absolutely


Josh

And how long is it going to take? And is it doesn't need an industrial process? So yeah, all of those things need to be considered. I think that's probably the way it's going and then helped along by like you said, government legislation and making brands accountable and responsible at the same time?


Sophie

Yeah.


Josh

Where do you see that onus? Is it on? Is it on the customer to be to be educated and knowing what to watch out for when purchasing or does it purely lie with the, the business or the brand to to I think like we spoke about previously making sure there's no there's been no compromises in this and its a stand up product?


Sophie

Yeah.


Sophie

Yeah, I think, I think it's a bit of both my position has always been that it cannot solely be on consumers. Because we have limitations in what we can do, and the information that we have access to when our understanding of incredibly complex supply chains, and you know, all that kind of thing, and we only have access to what's available, essentially, I mean, there are things that we do need to do as individuals, we do need to think about our habits and our consumption. And those of us with the resources to do so need to shop differently. And we can ask questions of brands, and there are things we can do, but I don't think it's going to be solved from the consumer up. It needs to happen from kind of government, you know, legislation, NGOs, whatever, down with brand accountability. And, you know, you can see it happening. So the Bangladesh Accord, which is at risk at the moment, you know, it might be coming to an end, and has made huge changes in giving people access to, you know, to kind of legal remedy to fire safety funds in place. Fire exits, you know, just proper kind of safety protocols, and it's legally binding and brands have been sued if they haven't adhered to those. If it you know, we've we've seen in the years proceeding that, you know, brands have been talking about this and talking about voluntary action, but it's so limited, because what's the Jeopardy the, you know, they might get a bit of bit of bad press or something, if they're, if their money is on the line, if they might, if what they're doing is, is illegal, and they can be held accountable for it. And that's when the changes really happen. And you know, as consumers, what would be, you know, we shouldn't really have to think about, okay, I'll just do half an hour research for by this by this one thing, we should be able to just go to the shop and think, Okay, this brand has taken responsibility, I know that they've paid that person fairly, I know that they haven't completely destroyed the environment. In the making of this, it should just be a given that things have been produced responsibility responsibly, within planetary boundaries, with people in mind and with the future of the planet in mind as well. And with legislation, we can achieve that kind of thing, because brands are on the hook for what they do, essentially. So yeah, for me, it all comes down to that kind of, kind of governance and that kind of accountability. Absolutely.


Josh

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think people only have so much time in their day. You can't the onus definitely cannot be on the customer to have to do that level of research each and every time purchasing something, I think. Yeah. That that legislation needs to come in and kind of you treat it almost as if you treat like food safety, you wouldn't be able to just put anything on the shelf it needs to go through testing, verifiable, all these kinds of things. Yeah, we need to get to that that level.


Sophie

I love the comparison with food safety that's exactly kind of what we need that you know that stringent that stringency to it. Yeah,


Josh

These are things people are putting on their body and wearing all day and in that you've got the conversation around polyester shedding microplastics. And even that one is, is it's not talked about so much even in the sustianble fashion world you've got people making things out of recycled plastic bottles, which is, that's great. You got to do something with those, but should it be in clothing? I'm not sure.


Sophie

That's it? Yeah. Yeah. It's a really interesting question.


Josh

Yeah. So So yeah, I feel like we need to get to that level. But kind of touching on what you said before, we are just making so so much. We're just producing so much, that is completely unsustainable, and we probably probably can't get much done unless some of these big brands scale back the amount of production And this might be an impossible question, but how do we? What What does that look like? What is the world in which they can pare that down look like? I know, you've got some of these regenerative materials now people, I spoke to somebody from Renewcell, and they're able to turn cotton, waste cotton into a like a new regenative material. So maybe you've got things on a loop Circularity like we said so we don't have to keep using these virgin materials. Have you had any other thoughts on how maybe they can pare back?


Sophie

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, brands have this kind of this growth imperative, don't they so, okay, you know, our profit margins have to be bigger every year. And, you know, we made this much extra a year, and we had this much product offering every year we, we access these new markets this year, and everything's about getting bigger all the time. But, and that's fine. If, you know, on the outside, it's kind of fine if you're not really faced with the consequences of that. But then, you know, people who are kind of dealing with the, you know, the second hand markets in Africa, for example, and they're, you know, they're dealing with our cast offs. And you see that, you know, they literally see the piles of clothes that are that are shipped over in these huge bales. And you can see that there really is actually nowhere for these to go. And beyond they're kind of incredible ingenuity in terms of what they can market and sell and what have you, there are still things that can't be sold, and what happens to them well they're dumped on places that don't have the, the logistics to kind of deal with them, and like you say, regenerate them and recapture these materials, which is kind of what we need to be doing. And, and it's I mean, fashion can still exist, I think this is the thing, we can still employ people within within this industry. But it might be that we're making things more slowly, or we're reskilling workers so that they're not working, you know, on a supply chain, where kind of we're training them as tailors for example. And there are some really incredible initiatives that are doing that kind of thing. So that, you know, the garments might be more expensive, but it means that the, that the the garment worker gets paid more, because the margins are higher, so there can still be manufacturing, and they're kind of still needs to be manufacturing, and but just a completely reduced volume. And it might mean, you know, slightly increased prices, but that would slow down our consumption anyway. Because we're not used to kind of, you know, to spending that much so and it is it's like you say it's kind of it's it's recapturing, what's already there. And is it is it rental, so that, you know, we don't have to, so maybe, you know, a brand makes less for a product, like, let's just say, for example, they used to make 100 a 100 pieces of it, of course, we know it would be wildly more, but let's say these make 100 pieces of it, and then would sell one each to a person, if they had a rental model where they still had a regular income. And they would, let's say they would only have to rent it to, you know, 10 people to make as much money they would have, they would have manufactured less, they would have used fewer resources, but they would still have that income, and then you know, infinitely that can be rented to even more people. So there are different systems that we can we can look to to generate income and, you know, brands can look to, to resale and what have you again without having to manufacture new. So there are absolutely ways that brands can reduce their output. But still, you know, make a profit and turnover and have these kind of different different income streams. And do it in a way that you know, where they need to reskill workers who they have exploited, you know, let's be honest, they're not just they're not just working for them. They've been exploited reskill them where they need to so they're not left behind if, you know, a certain way of working isn't as relevant anymore. So they're kind of brought forwards with that with that progression into de-growth essentially.


Josh

Are you hopeful for the for the future of this of the fashion industry?


Sophie

But yeah, oh, well, it depends on what day you catch me on. So sometimes I am you know, when I get the chance to speak to people who are doing amazing things with materials and you know, activists and and people who are leading the way that absolutely and of course sometimes I'm doing lots of research into the into the awful things that are still happening and I'm really cynical about it. And I kind of worry about the future of the planet and what what the fashion injury is doing to it. But I think, you know, I think we're in a better position than ever. It's not everyone is necessarily completely engaged in it, but almost everyone is aware of it. It's certainly not a niche subject anymore. And like, even, you know, with the article that my article over there, we're referring to at the beginning, even people who aren't necessarily shopping that way, still have expectations of brands to be sustainable. So there's a kind of market level expectation. So in that sense, in the sense of raised awareness in the sense of consumer expectations in the sense of kind of burgeoning legislation, and, you know, incredible innovation in material design, then yeah, in that sense, I think I am quite hopeful. Yeah.


Josh

I think like you said, If increasingly, customers start to ask questions of the bigger brands and make put pressure on them and make purchasing decisions elsewhere, then that also helps for legislation to come in and start to change things.


Sophie

Absolutely.


Josh

Is there kind of any, any providers or brands you want to you want to highlight that you think are doing really good work, or any causes people should look into?


Sophie

Yeah, I mean, I definitely would say, you know, there are some really fantastic organisations doing work on the ground in terms of labour rights. So remake have been incredible with pay up and pay her. The oh my gosh, it's named the worker rights Consortium, again, incredible, clean clothes campaign, labour behind the label, and all these kinds of organisations are really making sure that while we're talking about recycling and buying on depop, and whatever, the the workers, you know, who, without whom we wouldn't have all these incredible clothes, that, you know, they're not forgotten, but not doing it in a way where it's like, okay, we're these Western people sweeping in and hello we're here to save you working with, you know, Union organisers and workers on the ground and, and talking about what they need and supporting them, rather than just saying, you know, here, we're here to fix it for you. So, for me, those organisations are really, really important, and especially at the moment with the Bangladesh Accord kind of under threat, I think, if you can support them in terms of, you know, just sharing their message and sharing their information packs, and that's, it's really important and kind of lending your voice to their cause. So yeah, they are, absolutely one to look out for and ones to support.


Josh

How did you get into this, this area of research and writing?


Sophie

I was well I've worked in fashion as a stylist. And I've kind of my sort of personal direction with it was that I wanted to work with small and kind of independent brands. But to make ends meet, I was having to work in Ecom, you know, fast fashion ecommerce studios. And it was horrible, and the clothes were terrible quality, and it was all kind of smoke and mirrors, and the staff were miserable. And, and so, alongside that, as I was seeing that kind of unseen side of things. I started doing my own research and thinking about what I was buying and, you know, watching documentaries and reading reports and, and what have you, and I just kind of came to the conclusion that on a personal level, I couldn't continue to shop in the way I was and, you know, buy clothes that were the result of explotation for, for instance, so I kind of went cold turkey on fast fashion. And then made a really concerted effort to shift my career as well. So moved away from styling, started pitching articles on sustainability and no one cared, kept, kept pitching articles on sustainability. And eventually, you know, some editors that some smaller publications gave me a chance which gave me a, you know, a foothold to build upon to pitch to, to bigger corporations and to publications, sorry. And then I just happened to kind of get there in there at the right time as well. Just as you know, people were talking about it more and I was Yeah, it was just a case of my interest in my personal development aligning really nicely with this kind of interest. And so yeah, I was kind of right place, right time kind of person. And, you know, editors had seen that I've been pitching about this and thought okay, she's interested in it. So we'll go to her and ask so it was a it was a kind of


Sophie

it was a concerted effort mixed with some fortunate timing as well.


Josh

Yeah. Perfect. Well, this has been, this has been great. I think we've unpacked a lot that can, can really help people and start to maybe ask questions and do more research themselves. And so thank you so much for your time today Sophie.